Attending church has been such an integral part of our family tradition, though, that within a year or so we began attending a local church that was attempting to put a "postmodern" spin on the church experience. We didn't go every week, but we went enough to get to know the culture of that church. It was run by a small, tightly-bonded group of pastors. All were married men of roughly the same age.
By postmodern, I mean that this group of Pastors were trying to replace some of the traditional, Charismatic things one would associate with church - pews, the social expectation that one dresses up for church, bright lights, praise and worship songs written explicitly about God - with chairs, blue jeans, candles, and the occasional use of secular music in an attempt to reach people who would otherwise never be interested in hearing about God.
(There was much more to Christian postmodernism than a spiritual facelift, of course. But we lived in a very conservative culture and many of the other people at that church weren't necessarily interested in the philosophical aspects of postmodern thought at that time. )
I liked many of their ideas, but as I got to know them I became more and more disturbed by their attitudes about women. Several of these individuals believed that God never intended women to take any sort of leadership role in the church. I didn't agree, but fair enough. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
But then I noticed something else: sometimes a woman would make a suggestion or disagree about something in a conversation. If anyone responded to her, it would only be to give a list of reasons why her idea wouldn't work. A day or a week or a month later, a man would bring up the same point or disagreement....and it would spark change. Or, at the very least, it lead to further debate.
This happened time and time again. At the time I didn't have a word for what they were doing, I only knew that it really, really bothered me. To be fair, I had seen this happen before in several different churches over the years. It wasn't something limited to this particular group of Christians.
As I reread this story, it sounds like such an insignificant reason for taking the first step away from the religion that had been such a major part of my life up until then. Maybe if I had been more assertive, if I had told them how deeply disturbing it is to see women being continually left out of not only the decision-making process but also the conversation itself there may have been a change in that pattern.
Or maybe not. I don't know that anyone who was unwilling to listen to the opinions of women twice her age would have ever listened to a quiet, shy 18-year-old.
I know that at least some of these individuals have heard of the de-conversion of my family in the past few years. I wonder if they ever think about our reasons behind it? If I knew they would listen, I'd share my stories.
(Picture credits.)
Posts
11 comments:
I sometimes have the same thought....if they would listen I would share my stories. Sad to say, if it differs from what they've been taught about the woman's place in the church, they are basically not open to discussion. I've encountered this!
When we left the 'pastorate' ourselves, and went to a church in toledo, we found this belief in action. The wives of the pastors and elders were 'submisive' women, not assertive in any way, and 'knew where their place was'. I did NOT fit this pattern. I was opinionated, vocal, and didn't hesitate to voice my opinions. I never felt that in this particular church setting, we would ever be candidates for eldership and certainly not pastors. At that time, I think Richard was still desiring that, though he is no now.
They did let women teach, but usually at a service other than a Sunday morning. A few times they had a woman teach on Mother's Day...interesting...I guess that is the only day women are allowed to preach.
Richard and I feel like we'd like to have 'something' in our lives...some sort of group or meeting to go to to discuss, share, fellowship...but there just doesn't seem to be anything out there that appeals to us!! Who knows what the future will bring into our lives.
"Sad to say, if it differs from what they've been taught about the woman's place in the church, they are basically not open to discussion. "
Very true. I wish it wasn't so.
"Richard and I feel like we'd like to have 'something' in our lives"
I feel the same way.
I feel disgusted with the whole subject, there are entirely too many ignorant....., well I guess I better not use strong offensive words to describe such people but use your imagination and think the worst. I feel better just avoiding those kind of people.
Thanks for posting that and giving me a chance to vent a little.
I know the feeling.
My only thought is that maybe we're not the ones who who were meant to show them how they come across to other people? In this situation, it would have been like talking to a tree or a stone.
Of course, I could be wrong about that. Sometimes people can change, and I have not idea what any of these individuals are up to these days.
something that my friend Bruce G. says, is that we forget that people change over time. we know WE have changed, but we still imagine others as they were years ago.
Bruce is a wise man.
I agree - Bruce is very wise. :)
Hi, Lydia,
I came to your blog via another link. Am also a friend of your mom's although we haven't e-mailed in ages. Waves "hi," Tammy.
Just wanted to let you know that I agree with most of all your five points of concern with problems in many churches, and I'm a committed Christian believer. It can be discouraging, and very hurtful.
Think part of the issue is simply a lack of spiritual/emotional maturity, some poor hermaneutics, maybe fear.
I think it's generally best to let people know how you're feeling if you think it might help at all.
We certainly can't control their response. But, as Bruce has shared, people can, and do change over time.
Would like to ask, though, what prevented you from seeking out another community of faith that was affirming of the gifts of women, and more open in these other areas as well?
Is it good to totally allow others to define the Christian faith for us, or to so strongly impact our own relationship with the Lord?
Ultimately, is it about what other folks are doing, or not doin, but where we are personally at concerning the love of God expressed in Christ? And, how we walk that out in our lives..
Hey, I ask myself this same question everyday.
Good question, Grace.
I did, at first. But the new ways of interpreting certain parts of the bible never quite seemed right to me. I didn't want to force the bible into fitting around my beliefs, and I wasn't certain whether the traditional interpretations of the bible were what God actually intended to say.
I was also very, very burned out on religion in general. To compare it to a physical injury, it would be as if I was walking around on a broken leg for years. At that time I could just barely walk (e.g. retain my faith), much less run (e.g. find another church.)
I hope this makes sense. :)
Yes, it makes sense.
And, it can definitely be a challenge to discern which parts of Scripture are culturally bound, or perhaps not even meant to be interpreted literally, and what aspects of Scripture witness to time-less truth, and are life-giving regardless of the age, or any cultural differences.
The fact that you struggled with this at all shows that you took your convictions very seriously, Lydia.
One thing I think that is most harmful to the faith of young people, in particular, is the suppression of honest doubt, and open questioning, or even automatically assuming that everyone who holds to a different opinion has become an enemy, or at best has nothing constructive to say to the church.
Thanks for your honest sharing here, and over at ex-ministers..
Becky.
It wouldn't have changed anything, trust me. Love reading your blog still when I can catch up!! :)
You're probably right.
Welcome to my blog! I had no idea you knew about it. :)
Post a Comment